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A friend plans to play a cross-blooded abyssal and draconic bloodrager. His plans for the late game are to benefit from both Demonic Bulk (size increase while bloodraging, same effect as enlarge person but also works on non-humanoids) and Dragon Form (turn into a Large dragon while bloodraging, same effect as form of the dragon II) at the same time to enlarge his dragon form and grow to Huge size.

I have no idea if this is possible or legal. Is it?

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Real question is can you use Demonic Bulk and Dragon Form at the same time? RAW for Demonic Bulk (Su) states:

Demonic Bulk (Su) At 4th level, when entering a bloodrage, you can choose to grow one size category larger than your base size (as enlarge person) even if you aren't humanoid.

So yes you can use the form HOWEVER, the enlarge does not stack because it states your BASE SIZE, which does not apply to your dragon form as that is not your permanent form.

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    \$\begingroup\$ I know it's almost aggressively legalistic, but does the game ever define base size? \$\endgroup\$ – Hey I Can Chan Nov 20 '16 at 0:54
  • \$\begingroup\$ I think it does under additional rules. "Table: Random Height and Weight Gender: Male Base Height: 4 ft. 10 in. ... Base Weight: 120 lbs." Chapter 7 p 170 table 7-3 d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/human \$\endgroup\$ – Rowley Falconforge Nov 20 '16 at 1:04
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    \$\begingroup\$ @RowleyFalconforge Those aren't “base size” though, they're base height and base weight (as modified in a moment by die rolls to determine actual height and weight), and aren't ever a character statistic. Those don't determine your size (i.e., Medium, Large, Small, etc.) either. \$\endgroup\$ – SevenSidedDie Nov 20 '16 at 1:06
  • \$\begingroup\$ I would welcome another comments. Look at Base Speed vs Full Speed. d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/glossary#TOC-Speed Every place "BASE" is used in RAW, i.e. Base speed, Base Height, Base Weight, they are inherent characteristics at character creation without modifications or adjustments. Therefore base size would likely also be the size at character creation. \$\endgroup\$ – Rowley Falconforge Nov 20 '16 at 1:19
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    \$\begingroup\$ the term BASE is always used to refer to the unmodified values of a character, as in those values sans any magical items, curses or lingering magic effects/curses. In this case: the size the bloodrager has before application of any effects, so usually medium or small. Base values are only level dependent (see BAB and Base save boni) and are the base for any and all further calculations to get the modified/adjusted/full values. Should his class level(!) give him a size adjustment (which I doubt), he'd use that as his new base size, just like a druid's companion does change its size at 5/7. \$\endgroup\$ – Trish Nov 20 '16 at 21:43
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Besides the discussion of "base size", I would rule that raging is a class ability that is lost when transformed into a dragon.

Also I'd like to add:

Demonic Bulk is a supernatural ability gained from the Abyss bloodline whilst raging, and Transformation magic(in regards to the Form of the Dragon) specifically states:

While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ Yep! There's usually a rule that throws the proverbial kryptonite on a PC's attempt to become heroic at 1st level! We found it. \$\endgroup\$ – Rowley Falconforge Nov 21 '16 at 22:10
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For this one base size is determined by the characters starting race. So if he where per say a gnome which is base sized at small then it would work off of this to enlarge to medium. base size is determined by creature type. But you are the GM, as long as it does not break your game then you decide. These are just suggestions.

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