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Fighters get the Indomitable ability at level 9.

Beginning at 9th level, you can reroll a saving throw that you fail.

Should the Fighter fail a saving throw made with Advantage and use Indomitable to try again, is the new roll also made with Advantage?

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    \$\begingroup\$ Well, my understanding is that Indomitable is not specific to Death Saving Throws. You could, for instance, roll a WIS Saving Throw vs a dragon's Frightful Presence with advantage due to using Inspiration, and fail. It's unclear to me as to whether or not the reroll from Indomitable would carry over the Advantage due to it being the same Saving Throw, or would it be considered a new one and thus not carry over Advantage. Of course, the same would be true of a throw made with Disadvantage. \$\endgroup\$
    – QDust
    Dec 4 '16 at 22:34
  • \$\begingroup\$ @QDust--so sorry. I have absolutely no idea where I got the idea you were talking about death saving throws. \$\endgroup\$
    – nitsua60
    Dec 5 '16 at 0:32
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No; you choose one of the two dice to reroll

From "Advantage and Disadvantage" (PHB, p. 173):

When you have advantage or disadvantage and something in the game, such as the halfling's Lucky trait, lets you reroll or replace the d20, you can reroll or replace only one of the dice. You choose which one.

If you have advantage on the saving throw, Indomitable would let you reroll only one of the dice; you wouldn't reroll both dice.

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Maybe Yes

... but I don't think it's clear.

The wording as printed:

When you have advantage or disadvantage and something in the game, such as the halfling’s Lucky trait, lets you reroll the d20, you can reroll only one of the dice. You choose which one.

However, Indomitable doesn't specify that you reroll the d20, it specifies that you reroll the save.

Beginning at 9th level, you can reroll a saving throw that you fail. If you do so, you must use the new roll, and you can’t use this feature again until you finish a long rest.

To make a saving throw:

To make a saving throw, roll a d20 and add the appropriate ability modifier. For example, you use your Dexterity modifier for a Dexterity saving throw.

A saving throw can be modified by a situational bonus or penalty and can be affected by Advantage and Disadvantage, as determined by the GM.

So what does that mean?

As I see it, a saving throw involves rolling 1d20+modifier, and if affected by advantage or disadvantage then it results in rolling 2d20 keep high/low +mod.

So as originally printed, it's entirely clear that Indomitable replaces the saving throw and not the d20 roll.

As such, if the situation causes a continued advantage or disadvantage (such as saving vrs. Dominate person in combat), the advantage would apply to both the first and the replacement saving throw.

This is in stark contrast to the example in the text, Lucky, which replaces a d20 roll:

Whenever you make an attack roll, ability check, or saving throw, you may spend 1 luck point to roll an additional d20. (...)


Complication A: The wording doesn't make any sense.

Beginning at 9th level, you can reroll a saving throw that you fail. If you do so, you must use the new roll, and you can’t use this feature again until you finish a long rest.

The wording conflates rerolling the save with rerolling the dice. In the spirit of the game, "reroll a saving throw" implies two things that are typically the same thing:

  1. Make a saving throw again, replacing the old failure with the new result
  2. Roll the dice for the failed saving throw again, replacing the result

Without advantage or disadvantage these are identical effects, but with advantage or disadvantage they are suddenly completely different.

Given that 5e typically leans into the "flavor of D&D", I personally like #1, since it means that indomitable makes an unlucky advantage fail, much easier to succeed, and a expected disadvantage fail still remains a long shot.

Option #2 implies that indominable negates the circumstance of advantage or disadvantage entirely, which is far less flavorful.


Complication B:

The 2018 Errata changes the wording slightly in an apparent attempt to clarify things, which I believe actually confuses them further:

When you have advantage or disadvantage and something in the game, such as the halfling’s Lucky trait, lets you reroll or replace the d20, you can reroll or replace only one of the dice. You choose which one.

This is related to complication A, and maybe the stronger of the two.

Once again it comes down to if Indominable replaces the saving throw or the d20 roll, and once again, the specific wording says "reroll a saving throw", means either #1 or #2, and even the "clarifying" wording doesn't change that dual meaning. This is because re-making the saving throw (interpretation #1) wouldn't replace the d20, it would replace the save in it's entirety. Interpretation #2 still results in a direct d20 roll replacement so the single d20 roll on advantage/disadvantage would result.

The impasse remains unchanged.


Complication C: Other similar effects that do almost but not quite the same thing:

Lucky Trait / Luck Feat:

Whenever you make an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw, you can spend one luck point to roll an additional d20. You can choose to spend one of your luck points after you roll the die, but before the outcome is determined.

This is different for many reasons:

  • It explicitly changes a d20 roll, wheras Indominable at best implicitally changes one, and possibly doesn't change it at all
  • It affects the roll before the outcome is known
  • It does other stuff

Portent:

When you finish a long rest, roll two d20s and record the numbers rolled. You can replace any attack roll, saving throw, or ability check made by you or a creature that you can see with one of these foretelling rolls. You must choose to do so before the roll, and you can replace a roll in this way only once per turn.

This appears to be the reason for the 2018 errata.

This is an example of replacing a d20 roll with a new result, but not a "re-roll" as the pre-errata text specifies.

Pre-errata, portent would have arguably pre-empt *both d20s with one result, quashing the advantage or disadvantage (anti-flavor!), whereas with the 2018 errata, each portent die can only replace one of the dice at a time (and since it's only one per turn, only one total in an advantage/disadvantage situation), making portent, like lucky not able to overrule advantage or disadvantage in a situation, just tip the stacked for or against odds 1d20 attempt towards the players favor.


Complication D: Is it even the same saving throw?

Because indominable triggers on a failed save, the "replacement save" might not even be a replacement saving throw. It could also be seen as a second attempt to save the effect, entirely separate from the first. This seems flavor wise closer to the "trigger on hit then maybe re-write what happened" of the shield spell:

As a reaction to being hit by an attack:

An invisible barrier of magical force appears and protects you. Until the start of your next turn, you have a +5 bonus to AC, including against the triggering attack, ...

Indominable is closest mechanically to this ability of all that I've seen.

It triggers on a fail, like shield's trigger on hit, and then it potentially changes the outcome and re-writes history, possibly even removing the event that triggered it (the hit or fail).

If this is the case, then the Indominable save might not even be the same save as the one it replaces, since while mechanically it's generally a re-roll, it might in fact be an entirely new save, which would be subject to advantage or disadvantage as appropriate.


Conclusion:

It's clearly not clear. I think that the errata clarification implicitly makes portent align with interpretation #1 in terms of the effect on advantage and disadvantage. The flavor matches, and it feels better to the player in most cases. No ability overrules advantage or disadvantage in a sneaky way. Second, in the other two effects the exact mechanics are spelled out in detail, whereas Indominable muddles things up entirely. This makes me thing that it's going for something different: a replacement of the save attempt itself .

As a result, I'll refer to Wizard's rules questions reference:

Your DM has to make the final decisions on the fate of the characters in your collective imaginary world. They are the authority. Not Wizards of the Coast, the internet, or even fellow players get to make the final call on a rules decision in your own campaign.

And suggest that until there's a ruling that's actually clear, the DM consider all of these arguments, and hopefully come to a conclusion that everyone's happy with.

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    \$\begingroup\$ Notably, almost every single feature that involves any sort of reroll words it as rerolling a "saving throw", or an "attack roll", or an "ability check". The Lucky feat is one of very few abilities that mentions the actual d20. Also one reason it might say "d20" instead of "the attack roll, saving throw, or ability check" is simply because it is shorter to do so \$\endgroup\$
    – Medix2
    Oct 27 '20 at 2:47
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    – V2Blast
    Oct 27 '20 at 7:32

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