I recently downloaded the "Mazes & Minotaurs Player's Handbook: 2012 Silver Jubilee Edition" PDF. I believe this PHB is a revised / updated version of the Legendary Games Studio-revised 1987 version of the same game.

At the end of each chapter, the authors included "2007 Edition Notes and Comments". One comment at the end of the 4th Chapter, "Adventuring", intrigued me:

... he described the « three laws of Kreuk » (from the name of Thomas Kreuk, author of Warfare & Wizardry, often labelled as the ‘most complex RPG rules ever written’ – a dubious claim to fame if you ask me) ...

I tried to learn more about this game online. However, I was unable to find any reference to the game or the author. I get results that return this direct quote but no leads on the actual game. The closest I've come is references to "Chivalry & Sorcery: Warfare & Wizardry in the Feudal Age" but the author names are different.

I'm not sure if the notes changed the name to protect the innocent, if the terms are so generic that I've simply not stumbled across it yet, or if it's so obscure that it simply not in the search engines. From the context, I assume it, if it exists, dates back to the early 70's ("Mazes & Minotaurs" was originally published in 1972).

My question is: did Warfare & Wizardry exist as a published RPG game?

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    \$\begingroup\$ This also begs the question of "Who are game-designer Thomas Kreuk and supposedly-famous Dave St. Armand?" \$\endgroup\$ Feb 16, 2017 at 21:50

2 Answers 2


No, the Warfare & Wizardry referenced by M&M never existed, nor did its author. All those details are part of the fictional history that Mazes & Minotaurs weaves around itself. The first edition of M&M (the “1972 edition”) was really first published in 2006, during the early years of the Old School Renaissance.

The conceit behind M&M is that it's an alternate history version of D&D, if D&D had been based on greek mythology instead of on sci-fi/fantasy novels and medieval European pastiche. Hence the fictional details. Many of the names are references to actual designers and games — such as “Dave St. Armand” being a likely homage to Dave Arneson, co-author of D&D — but only the author of M&M could tell you for certain which references are inspired by which real-history games and designers. W&W is likely a reference to Chivalry & Sorcery, a famously complex treatment of fantasy adventuring of the right vintage, but your guess is as good as mine.

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    \$\begingroup\$ Wow! Great answer and great back story. I feel like I've been Punk'd™. Now that I know what to look for you are absolutely right: rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12092.phtml \$\endgroup\$
    – GSP
    Feb 16, 2017 at 23:33

I'm Olivier Legrand, main creator of Mazes & Minotaurs - and the above answer is 100% correct (I must say I'm impressed by SevenSidedDie's M&M-lore).

Warfare & Wizardry, like all games, magazines and personalities mentioned in the fictional history of M&M is entirely fictional - and yes, it was a direct reference to Chivalry & Sorcery (just like "GlyphQuest" is a reference to... well, I'll let you guess:))

The name "Dave St. Armand" was indeed coined from Dave Arneson - as well as from Ken St-André, creator of Tunnels & Trolls.

Lastly, if you want to know the "whole story" behind the creation of M&M:

The Whole Story (or : the Mazes & Minotaurs Odyssey)

Shield wall!

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    \$\begingroup\$ Welcome to the site, and thanks for contributing. We love hearing from creators! And I hope you'll stick around--you'll have plenty-more chances to be impressed by SevenSidedDie's... well, everything!) \$\endgroup\$
    – nitsua60
    Feb 17, 2017 at 12:16
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    \$\begingroup\$ I guess my three tattered issues of Griffin magazine are now worth fewer silver pieces in ebay ... 8^D \$\endgroup\$ Feb 17, 2017 at 14:11
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    \$\begingroup\$ Welcome! I'm having a blast reading through your game. We'll done; both the game system and the convincing recreation of "classic" RPGs. \$\endgroup\$
    – GSP
    Feb 17, 2017 at 15:02

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