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It's unclear.

"Symbiotic" is a template. Templates normally modify an existing creature, and you add any LA from the template to the LA of the creature being modified, then use the sum of the two as the LA of the resulting creature. From the SRD's rules for templates:

Level Adjustment

This entry is a modifier to the base creature’s level adjustment. Any level adjustment is meaningless unless the creature retains a high enough Intelligence (minimum 3) to gain class levels after applying the template.

However, unlike most templates, Symbiotic modifies two base creatures (Savage Species, p. 132):

"Symbiotic" is an acquired template that can be added to any two living creatures of the following types: animal, humanoid, plant, or vermin. The two creatures need not be the same type. One (hereafter referred to as the guest) must be at least two size categories smaller than the other (hereafter referred to as the host).

Further on in the template, there's an entry for "Level Adjustment," which would have been a great place for the authors of the template to clarify how the template's level adjustment works, given that it applies to two base creatures instead of the typical one. Unfortunately, they didn't. All it says is:

Level Adjustment: +1

I think there are two ways you could reasonably rule here:

  • The final creature's level adjustment is the host's level adjustment + 1 (using the host instead of the guest because the host's hit dice are used, and the "Advancement" entry says the creature advances as the host).
  • The final creature's level adjustment is host's LA + guest's LA + 1 (which might be fairer, since it would prevent potential abuse cases where you get a bunch of free power by using a guest with high LA and many useful abilities).

I don't think it's reasonable to go with guest's LA + 1, since the template prioritizes the host's stats for both hit dice and advancement, the two fields most closely related to level adjustment.

As far as I'm aware, there's nothing in the rules to clarify this situation, you just have to get a ruling from your DM.

None of your examples will work.

You mention:

Some creatures in mind: Faerie dragon (Small creature with LA+2) Wyrmling or Very young Shadow Dragon (Tiny or Small creature with LA+3)

None of these are valid guests for the Symbiotic template, because, as previously quoted:

"Symbiotic" is an acquired template that can be added to any two living creatures of the following types: animal, humanoid, plant, or vermin.

Your examples are all of the Dragon type, making them ineligible for the template.

It's actually quite difficult to find creatures from the allowed types that are small enough, intelligent enough, and have enough powerful abilities to be worth using as the guest half of a Symbiotic creature, but there are options if you splatbook-dive enough:

  • One common strategy I've seen from people trying to cheese this template in charop circles is to pile a whole bunch of powerful, high-LA/unlisted-LA templates (like Paragon) onto a creature that qualifies for the guest half, then use the "host's LA + 1" interpretation to cancel out all of that LA and get some of the benefits of the guest half's template stack for free.
  • There's also the Dread Blossom Swarm from Monster Manual III, a tiny plant that can be used for major shenanigans.

It's unclear.

"Symbiotic" is a template. Templates normally modify an existing creature, and you add any LA from the template to the LA of the creature being modified, then use the sum of the two as the LA of the resulting creature. From the SRD's rules for templates:

Level Adjustment

This entry is a modifier to the base creature’s level adjustment. Any level adjustment is meaningless unless the creature retains a high enough Intelligence (minimum 3) to gain class levels after applying the template.

However, unlike most templates, Symbiotic modifies two base creatures (Savage Species, p. 132):

"Symbiotic" is an acquired template that can be added to any two living creatures of the following types: animal, humanoid, plant, or vermin. The two creatures need not be the same type. One (hereafter referred to as the guest) must be at least two size categories smaller than the other (hereafter referred to as the host).

Further on in the template, there's an entry for "Level Adjustment," which would have been a great place for the authors of the template to clarify how the template's level adjustment works, given that it applies to two base creatures instead of the typical one. Unfortunately, they didn't. All it says is:

Level Adjustment: +1

I think there are two ways you could reasonably rule here:

  • The final creature's level adjustment is the host's level adjustment + 1 (using the host instead of the guest because the host's hit dice are used, and the "Advancement" entry says the creature advances as the host).
  • The final creature's level adjustment is host's LA + guest's LA + 1 (which might be fairer, since it would prevent potential abuse cases where you get a bunch of free power by using a guest with high LA and many useful abilities).

I don't think it's reasonable to go with guest's LA + 1, since the template prioritizes the host's stats for both hit dice and advancement, the two fields most closely related to level adjustment.

As far as I'm aware, there's nothing in the rules to clarify this situation, you just have to get a ruling from your DM.

None of your examples will work.

You mention:

Some creatures in mind: Faerie dragon (Small creature with LA+2) Wyrmling or Very young Shadow Dragon (Tiny or Small creature with LA+3)

None of these are valid guests for the Symbiotic template, because, as previously quoted:

"Symbiotic" is an acquired template that can be added to any two living creatures of the following types: animal, humanoid, plant, or vermin.

Your examples are all of the Dragon type, making them ineligible for the template.

It's actually quite difficult to find creatures from the allowed types that are small enough, intelligent enough, and have enough powerful abilities to be worth using as the guest half of a Symbiotic creature, but there are options if you splatbook-dive enough:

  • One common strategy I've seen from people trying to cheese this template in charop circles is to pile a whole bunch of powerful, high-LA templates (like Paragon) onto a creature that qualifies for the guest half, then use the "host's LA + 1" interpretation to cancel out all of that LA and get some of the benefits of the guest half's template stack for free.
  • There's also the Dread Blossom Swarm from Monster Manual III, a tiny plant that can be used for major shenanigans.

It's unclear.

"Symbiotic" is a template. Templates normally modify an existing creature, and you add any LA from the template to the LA of the creature being modified, then use the sum of the two as the LA of the resulting creature. From the SRD's rules for templates:

Level Adjustment

This entry is a modifier to the base creature’s level adjustment. Any level adjustment is meaningless unless the creature retains a high enough Intelligence (minimum 3) to gain class levels after applying the template.

However, unlike most templates, Symbiotic modifies two base creatures (Savage Species, p. 132):

"Symbiotic" is an acquired template that can be added to any two living creatures of the following types: animal, humanoid, plant, or vermin. The two creatures need not be the same type. One (hereafter referred to as the guest) must be at least two size categories smaller than the other (hereafter referred to as the host).

Further on in the template, there's an entry for "Level Adjustment," which would have been a great place for the authors of the template to clarify how the template's level adjustment works, given that it applies to two base creatures instead of the typical one. Unfortunately, they didn't. All it says is:

Level Adjustment: +1

I think there are two ways you could reasonably rule here:

  • The final creature's level adjustment is the host's level adjustment + 1 (using the host instead of the guest because the host's hit dice are used, and the "Advancement" entry says the creature advances as the host).
  • The final creature's level adjustment is host's LA + guest's LA + 1 (which might be fairer, since it would prevent potential abuse cases where you get a bunch of free power by using a guest with high LA and many useful abilities).

I don't think it's reasonable to go with guest's LA + 1, since the template prioritizes the host's stats for both hit dice and advancement, the two fields most closely related to level adjustment.

As far as I'm aware, there's nothing in the rules to clarify this situation, you just have to get a ruling from your DM.

None of your examples will work.

You mention:

Some creatures in mind: Faerie dragon (Small creature with LA+2) Wyrmling or Very young Shadow Dragon (Tiny or Small creature with LA+3)

None of these are valid guests for the Symbiotic template, because, as previously quoted:

"Symbiotic" is an acquired template that can be added to any two living creatures of the following types: animal, humanoid, plant, or vermin.

Your examples are all of the Dragon type, making them ineligible for the template.

It's actually quite difficult to find creatures from the allowed types that are small enough, intelligent enough, and have enough powerful abilities to be worth using as the guest half of a Symbiotic creature, but there are options if you splatbook-dive enough:

  • One common strategy I've seen from people trying to cheese this template in charop circles is to pile a whole bunch of powerful, high-LA/unlisted-LA templates (like Paragon) onto a creature that qualifies for the guest half, then use the "host's LA + 1" interpretation to cancel out all of that LA and get some of the benefits of the guest half's template stack for free.
  • There's also the Dread Blossom Swarm from Monster Manual III, a tiny plant that can be used for major shenanigans.
Source Link
A_S00
A_S00
  • 12.9k
  • 4
  • 41
  • 78

It's unclear.

"Symbiotic" is a template. Templates normally modify an existing creature, and you add any LA from the template to the LA of the creature being modified, then use the sum of the two as the LA of the resulting creature. From the SRD's rules for templates:

Level Adjustment

This entry is a modifier to the base creature’s level adjustment. Any level adjustment is meaningless unless the creature retains a high enough Intelligence (minimum 3) to gain class levels after applying the template.

However, unlike most templates, Symbiotic modifies two base creatures (Savage Species, p. 132):

"Symbiotic" is an acquired template that can be added to any two living creatures of the following types: animal, humanoid, plant, or vermin. The two creatures need not be the same type. One (hereafter referred to as the guest) must be at least two size categories smaller than the other (hereafter referred to as the host).

Further on in the template, there's an entry for "Level Adjustment," which would have been a great place for the authors of the template to clarify how the template's level adjustment works, given that it applies to two base creatures instead of the typical one. Unfortunately, they didn't. All it says is:

Level Adjustment: +1

I think there are two ways you could reasonably rule here:

  • The final creature's level adjustment is the host's level adjustment + 1 (using the host instead of the guest because the host's hit dice are used, and the "Advancement" entry says the creature advances as the host).
  • The final creature's level adjustment is host's LA + guest's LA + 1 (which might be fairer, since it would prevent potential abuse cases where you get a bunch of free power by using a guest with high LA and many useful abilities).

I don't think it's reasonable to go with guest's LA + 1, since the template prioritizes the host's stats for both hit dice and advancement, the two fields most closely related to level adjustment.

As far as I'm aware, there's nothing in the rules to clarify this situation, you just have to get a ruling from your DM.

None of your examples will work.

You mention:

Some creatures in mind: Faerie dragon (Small creature with LA+2) Wyrmling or Very young Shadow Dragon (Tiny or Small creature with LA+3)

None of these are valid guests for the Symbiotic template, because, as previously quoted:

"Symbiotic" is an acquired template that can be added to any two living creatures of the following types: animal, humanoid, plant, or vermin.

Your examples are all of the Dragon type, making them ineligible for the template.

It's actually quite difficult to find creatures from the allowed types that are small enough, intelligent enough, and have enough powerful abilities to be worth using as the guest half of a Symbiotic creature, but there are options if you splatbook-dive enough:

  • One common strategy I've seen from people trying to cheese this template in charop circles is to pile a whole bunch of powerful, high-LA templates (like Paragon) onto a creature that qualifies for the guest half, then use the "host's LA + 1" interpretation to cancel out all of that LA and get some of the benefits of the guest half's template stack for free.
  • There's also the Dread Blossom Swarm from Monster Manual III, a tiny plant that can be used for major shenanigans.