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KRyan
KRyan
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It’sIt might be a low-end Tier 3, but...

So it’s a decent chassis with half-decent spellcasting. Bardic spellcasting is better, but paladins’ and rangers’ are arguably worse.¹ Strictly speaking, that makes it superior to a lot of classes; a 20th-level hero seems to be doing a lot better than a 20th-level fighter or 20th-level warlock.

The issue, to me, is that the class gives little and less reason to stick around—without any class features, there’s a lot of incentive to move into a prestige class ASAP. And the problem with that is, you’re no longer getting the superior chassis to go along with it—so you might as well have had better spellcasting. This does vary a fair bit based on what level you are though: a bunch of the better divine-progressing PrCs require BAB +4, which the hero gets at 4th and a cleric or whatever gets at 6th, so 2 levels of acceleration, which is nothing to sneeze at. But it definitely doesn’t compete well with cleric spellcasting once it gets going, and even something like a divine bard is going to look a lot better at higher levels (particularly when the PrC is done and now the hero doesn’t have any particular advantage).

I’m just not seeing much point to it, myself. In a lower-power game it probably runs fine, and I suppose it could work well for a simpler (but still spellcasting) character for a new player, but even then it’s still spellcasting, which is pretty rough.

One thing you might consider is giving it adept spellcasting, but making it full-list spontaneous à la beguiler or dread necromancer. That would make its spellcasting a little more useful, and you’d also go a long way towards making it actually a pretty decent suggestion for a new player.

  1. This does depend on how much you leverage the ability to use wands of all spells on your list; paladins and rangers can get a lot more mileage out of that than an adept can, and it goes a long way towards salvaging their spellcasting’s value. But to get that value, you have to actually deal with the logistical headache that is consumable items.

It’s might be a low-end Tier 3, but...

So it’s a decent chassis with half-decent spellcasting. Bardic spellcasting is better, but paladins’ and rangers’ are arguably worse.¹ Strictly speaking, that makes it superior to a lot of classes; a 20th-level hero seems to be doing a lot better than a 20th-level fighter or 20th-level warlock.

The issue, to me, is that the class gives little and less reason to stick around—without any class features, there’s a lot of incentive to move into a prestige class ASAP. And the problem with that is, you’re no longer getting the superior chassis to go along with it—so you might as well have had better spellcasting. This does vary a fair bit based on what level you are though: a bunch of the better divine-progressing PrCs require BAB +4, which the hero gets at 4th and a cleric or whatever gets at 6th, so 2 levels of acceleration, which is nothing to sneeze at. But it definitely doesn’t compete well with cleric spellcasting once it gets going, and even something like a divine bard is going to look a lot better at higher levels (particularly when the PrC is done and now the hero doesn’t have any particular advantage).

I’m just not seeing much point to it, myself. In a lower-power game it probably runs fine, and I suppose it could work well for a simpler (but still spellcasting) character for a new player, but even then it’s still spellcasting, which is pretty rough.

One thing you might consider is giving it adept spellcasting, but making it full-list spontaneous à la beguiler or dread necromancer. That would make its spellcasting a little more useful, and you’d also go a long way towards making it actually a pretty decent suggestion for a new player.

  1. This does depend on how much you leverage the ability to use wands of all spells on your list; paladins and rangers can get a lot more mileage out of that than an adept can, and it goes a long way towards salvaging their spellcasting’s value. But to get that value, you have to actually deal with the logistical headache that is consumable items.

It might be a low-end Tier 3, but...

So it’s a decent chassis with half-decent spellcasting. Bardic spellcasting is better, but paladins’ and rangers’ are arguably worse.¹ Strictly speaking, that makes it superior to a lot of classes; a 20th-level hero seems to be doing a lot better than a 20th-level fighter or 20th-level warlock.

The issue, to me, is that the class gives little and less reason to stick around—without any class features, there’s a lot of incentive to move into a prestige class ASAP. And the problem with that is, you’re no longer getting the superior chassis to go along with it—so you might as well have had better spellcasting. This does vary a fair bit based on what level you are though: a bunch of the better divine-progressing PrCs require BAB +4, which the hero gets at 4th and a cleric or whatever gets at 6th, so 2 levels of acceleration, which is nothing to sneeze at. But it definitely doesn’t compete well with cleric spellcasting once it gets going, and even something like a divine bard is going to look a lot better at higher levels (particularly when the PrC is done and now the hero doesn’t have any particular advantage).

I’m just not seeing much point to it, myself. In a lower-power game it probably runs fine, and I suppose it could work well for a simpler (but still spellcasting) character for a new player, but even then it’s still spellcasting, which is pretty rough.

One thing you might consider is giving it adept spellcasting, but making it full-list spontaneous à la beguiler or dread necromancer. That would make its spellcasting a little more useful, and you’d also go a long way towards making it actually a pretty decent suggestion for a new player.

  1. This does depend on how much you leverage the ability to use wands of all spells on your list; paladins and rangers can get a lot more mileage out of that than an adept can, and it goes a long way towards salvaging their spellcasting’s value. But to get that value, you have to actually deal with the logistical headache that is consumable items.
Source Link
KRyan
KRyan
  • 360.7k
  • 59
  • 943
  • 1.5k

It’s might be a low-end Tier 3, but...

So it’s a decent chassis with half-decent spellcasting. Bardic spellcasting is better, but paladins’ and rangers’ are arguably worse.¹ Strictly speaking, that makes it superior to a lot of classes; a 20th-level hero seems to be doing a lot better than a 20th-level fighter or 20th-level warlock.

The issue, to me, is that the class gives little and less reason to stick around—without any class features, there’s a lot of incentive to move into a prestige class ASAP. And the problem with that is, you’re no longer getting the superior chassis to go along with it—so you might as well have had better spellcasting. This does vary a fair bit based on what level you are though: a bunch of the better divine-progressing PrCs require BAB +4, which the hero gets at 4th and a cleric or whatever gets at 6th, so 2 levels of acceleration, which is nothing to sneeze at. But it definitely doesn’t compete well with cleric spellcasting once it gets going, and even something like a divine bard is going to look a lot better at higher levels (particularly when the PrC is done and now the hero doesn’t have any particular advantage).

I’m just not seeing much point to it, myself. In a lower-power game it probably runs fine, and I suppose it could work well for a simpler (but still spellcasting) character for a new player, but even then it’s still spellcasting, which is pretty rough.

One thing you might consider is giving it adept spellcasting, but making it full-list spontaneous à la beguiler or dread necromancer. That would make its spellcasting a little more useful, and you’d also go a long way towards making it actually a pretty decent suggestion for a new player.

  1. This does depend on how much you leverage the ability to use wands of all spells on your list; paladins and rangers can get a lot more mileage out of that than an adept can, and it goes a long way towards salvaging their spellcasting’s value. But to get that value, you have to actually deal with the logistical headache that is consumable items.