Can a character under the effects of Geas cast Remove Curse on herself?

Question

Let's say a wizard casts Geas at 9th level on a Cleric and says "Bring me 100gp from the offering plate every day."

Can the cleric basically just wave her hand, cast a 3rd-level Remove Curse spell on herself, and end the effect? Furthermore, can this be prevented by saying "Bring me 100gp from the offering plate every day and don't cast remove curse on yourself?" Even then, the psychic damage doesn't seem like much of a cost.

By RAW it seems that this is possible, but in terms of balance this makes a simple remove curse unbelievably powerful.

How does this work?

Answer 1

Your questions:

1. Can a character under the effects of Geas cast Remove Curse on herself? YES.

2. Can this be prevented by saying "Bring me 100gp from the offering plate every day and don't cast remove curse on yourself?" NO.

3. How does this work? SEE BELOW:

Question 1:

There is nothing in the spell description stating that the creature is magically compelled to do, or to not do, anything, even disobeying the command you have given. What there is is a consequence for disobeying, which it explicitly states is possible:

While the creature is charmed by you, it takes 5d10 psychic damage each time it acts in a manner directly counter to your instructions, but no more than once each day.

So YES they can cast Remove Curse on themselves. or in fact do anything else.

Question 2:

The geas spell description (PHB p.244) states that

You place a magical command on a creature that you can see within range, forcing it to carry out some service or refrain from some action or course of activity as you decide

This means that you can tell them to do something or tell them not to do something, but not both. Also it is singular, you can refer to only a single course of action. So you can't command them to not cast Remove Curse on themselves (or anything else) as well as the primary command.

So NO you can't prevent them from casting Remove curse on themselves in addition to the primary command.

Question 3:

I am going to rephrase the "How does this work?" question to something more specific: At what point does the target of a geas know it has had a geas cast on it?

The spell description states:

If the creature can understand you, it must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or become charmed by you for the duration.

and that

A creature that can't understand you is unaffected by the spell.

This means that they have to hear and understand your verbal command to be able to follow it, there is no "telepathic" magical transference of meaning. This means the creature effected knows at least that someone has given it a command it can hear in a language it can understand at the time of casting. As stated earlier there is no magical compulsion to follow the command.

Do they know they have had a spell cast on them? The Rules answers 2016 state, using suggestion (PHB p.279) as an example, gives strong guidance:

You’re aware that a spell is affecting you if it has a perceptible effect or if its text says you’re aware of it (see PH, 204, under “Targets”). Most spells are obvious. For example, fireball burns you, cure wounds heals you, and command forces you to suddenly do something you didn’t intend. Certain spells are more subtle, yet you become aware of the spell at a time specified in the spell’s description. Charm person and detect thoughts are examples of such spells.

Some spells are so subtle that you might not know you were ever under their effects. A prime example of that sort of spell is suggestion. Assuming you failed to notice the spellcaster casting the spell, you might simply remember the caster saying, “The treasure you’re looking for isn’t here. Go look for it in the room at the top of the next tower.” You failed your saving throw, and off you went to the other tower, thinking it was your idea to go there.

Breaking this down you’re aware that a spell is affecting you if:

• it has a perceptible effect
• if its text says you’re aware of it at some point

You might miss that a spell is affecting you if:

• the spell is subtle
• you failed to notice the spellcaster casting the spell

Applying this to Geas:

• it does not have a perceptible effect at the point of casting and
• the description does not explicitly state you are aware of it.
• The damage done by the spell is psychic, in the mind of the target and that only happens at the point you go against the command and The spell has only a Verbal component, no handwaving or bits of fleece so it is subtle (a velvet wrapped hammer springs to mind)

So it is down to whether the character notices the spell being cast as to whether they know that a spell has been cast on them, up until they take damage and at that point it is whether they recognise the spell effect for what it is.

The PHB p203 describes a Verbal component of a spell as:

Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren’t the source of the spell’s power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion.

This means that the words of the command given are not the only part of the Verbal component, at the very least the words have to be said at a particular pitch and resonance etc. So it will be down to the DM to set the difficulty for the target, or any other witness, to notice and recognise that a spell has been cast.

The target has to be aware of the command so no perception roll is required so as a DM I personally would base it on an Int(Arcana) roll (or Wis(Arcana) if you, like I do, use the alternate rules on skill characteristics with a different take on the information provided by a success). I'd suggest a difficulty of around 13 depending on the circumstances.

Answer 2

The Geas spell states:

A remove curse, greater restoration, or wish spell also ends it.
At Higher Levels. [...] When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 9th level, the spell lasts until it is ended by one of the spells mentioned above.

Not sure where the confusion is there. Remove Curse is one of the spells mentioned above so yes, the cleric is more than able to cast that on herself and end Geas.

As for your question about also commanding them not to cast Remove Curse on themselves, I would say no. Geas allows you to place a magical command on someone. A command that can force it to carry out some service or refrain from some action or course of activity.

The addition of not casting Remove Curse on yourself is really an additional and seperate command, even though it is strung together in the same sentence and thus would not work with one casting of Geas. Otherwise you could string together a seemingly infinite number of commands just by connecting them all with "and".

Also, it's very possible that the cleric wouldn't even know they were affected by Geas to begin with unless they saw the spell being cast since Geas doesn't exactly have an obvious, perceptible effect, as further explained in the Sage Advice Compendium. In that case the cleric wouldn't have any reason to consider casting Remove Curse on herself anyway.

However, this is also left, in part, to DM discretion and their campaign setting/world, as also stated in the Sage Advice Compendium. How much exposure to magic the cleric has, whether bringing someone 100gp from the offering plate every day is something the cleric would reasonably do or whether they would even suspect a spell was cast on them if it's not, are all factors that could lead to the cleric realising that a spell was cast on them.

Answer 3

The spell is really not clear enough on what "some service" means and because of that it will be very GM dependant. E.g. can "some service" mean do X while not casting any spells on yourself. In my opinion that is a definite yes. But the next GM might think differently (this question definitely has answers from GM's that don't think so).

Some GMs might find this too close to a prohibition of a course of activity which is indeed mentioned as an "alternative". In which case try the following: Do X at the maximum speed possible using all actions (and bonus actions, reactions) towards that goal. This doesn't explicitly prohibit anything but just doesn't leave time available to cast spells.

If the GM thinks you even cannot command how the charmed creature should perform the task then the "some service" option quickly becomes powerless. "Bring me X." "Sure, I'll get right to that in 50 years." No damage because I am obeying. I'm just slow.

Answer 4

A "manner directly counter to your instructions"

If your express instructions were to bring you 100gp from the collection plate, then embarking on any action intended to avoid, prevent, or frustrate this is acting counter to your instructions. The cleric can decide to not pass the collection plate today. She can tell the acolytes to hide the money after they pass the plate. She can get them to seal her up in an anchorite cell. She can do any of these things, but at the cost of taking the damage.

If the cleric knows she is under the effect of the geas, and then chooses to cast remove curse on herself with the express intention of removing the geas so that she doesn't have to follow the command...then she has also decided to act "in a manner directly counter to your instructions". No, this can't be prevented by telling her not to do it; as the other answers here explain, the explicit command to not cast remove curse would be a separate command from the first. But neither is it necessary to do this, because the command of "bring me 100gp every day" includes the implicit condition 'and don't do anything that would prevent you from completing this command'.

So yes, the cleric can "simply" cast remove curse on herself, but as soon as she starts to cast the spell, she will take the psychic damage. If she remains conscious after the damage, she can complete the spell and remove the geas. Moral of the story; be careful when you cast on the representatives of the gods.

This is an enchantment spell

Knowing that she is a cleric, and has ready access to remove curse, the astute wizard will not rely solely on the blunt force of the spell or the limited threat of psychic damage. Rather, they will try to convince the cleric to not remove the spell. Something along the lines of, "You know that strange compulsion you feel to bring me money? That's a geas I just placed on you, at 9th level. Yes, I am capable of casting 9th level spells. So while you could just remove it and tank the damage, do you really want to? Because if you do, you are forcing me to escalate. Since we have already established that I have access to 9th level spells, you are aware that I can gate in a demon in the middle of your next service. I can meteor swarm your church picnic from a mile away. I can true polymorph any of your parishioners, or you, into a slug. Doesn't it seem more reasonable to just bring me the money? Isn't that in the best interests of everyone?"

And then, when the cleric makes her contested roll against Persuasion, or Deception, or Intimidation, the wizard has advantage on their roll, because geas says she has:

become charmed by you for the duration

and the charmed condition says:

The charmer has advantage on any ability check to interact socially with the creature.

Balance

As far as balance, we have an 18+ level caster against 5+ level caster. Balance is not determined by the result of one spell. A wizard could cast magic missile at 9th level - and this can be blocked by a 1st level shield spell. Balance is determined by the next move - by the depth of their possible responses to the initial stalemate.