Turning Undead in 1st edition

Question

I've been running the Temple of Elemental Evil for some young 'uns to show them that we really did have to walk 12 miles uphill to play AD&D and 18 miles uphill home afterwards back in the day. However, I find that my Gygaxian has become a little rusty.

On p.65 of the DMG it says:

As stated on the CLERICS AFFECTING UNDEAD TABLE, this function may be attempted only once by each cleric. Of course, if there are two, both may attempt the function, each trying once, etc. There is also an exceptional case where turning may be practiced more than once by each and every cleric concerned. This occurs in cases where multiple forms of creatures subject to turning are involved. If the cleric attempting the turning is successful against any or all types within the group of multiple forms of undead, that type or multiple types, to the maximum number indicated by the dice roll or otherwise indicated by the rules, are turned, and on the next round the cleric so successful may attempt to turn other undead of the group. This process may continue as long as each successive attempt is successful and the cleric lives. Undead so turned (from the group of multiple types) are lowest hit dice types to highest hit dice types, i.e. first listed to last listed on the table. Any failure to turn undead disallows a further attempt by the same cleric. Turning can occur at the same time as missile discharge, magical device attacks, and/or spell casting. It also is subject to initiative determination.

In true Gygaxian fashion, the Table is nowhere near the rules. It's on p.75. It's also not called a TABLE, it's called a MATRIX. It also isn't relevant to the question, it's just me venting that my sadism towards the players is not matched with equivalent masochism towards myself. Ah well, when you're young you endure all sorts of hardships for your pleasure: now it's just Long Island Iced Tea and a swimming pool thanks.

So two, questions:

1. "... once by each cleric." I'm almost certain that I don't think it means what it says - if you play a cleric, you can turn undead once in your career and never again. From its position in the COMBAT chapter (like that's any sort of guide), I think it means once per combat. Does anyone have any insight?
2. Informed by the above, if new undead join the combat, can a new turning attempt be made?
3. The "... exceptional case ..." seems to allow a cleric to keep succeeding over and over as long as the original group consisted of "multiple forms". So:
   1. What does "multiple forms" mean? The text uses "forms" and "types" - types is clear from the table: skeletons are a different type from zombies and so on. But are "forms" synonymous with "types": that is, does "multiple forms" mean more than one type of undead or just more than 1 undead.
   2. If the former, what happens if the mixed group is reduced to a homogenous group by this process? Can the cleric keep trying so long as they keep succeeding?

Answer 1

You can keep turning new individual undead as long as you keep making the roll

1. Look at page 76 in DMG. We played that this means an individual undead is either turned by a cleric or immune to turning by that cleric. Our home rule was that once the cleric gains a level, then the cleric could attempt turning that individual undead again.

"Failure to score the number shown, or greater, means the turning was unsuccessful. No further attempt by the cleric can be made with respect to the particular undead, and they may proceed to attack or otherwise operate unconstrained."

2. Yes, if new undead join, the cleric can attempt to turn the newcomers. We also played it that a turning attempt affected d12 at a time, based on the page 76 procedure section d12 turned or 7 to 12 destroyed at high cleric level and low undead level. This means if you faced a zombie apocalypse, you could attempt to turn undead a d12 at a time. Once the turning attempt fails on that level of undead in that combat group, that group cannot be turned again. You would have to attempt to turn a different group in a different location or time. This approach allowed attempting to turn each undead individual exactly once. If there are 20 ghouls, you could turn a d12 at a time: 7, 5, 3, 8(only 5 remain). We found this approach to be workable, trackable, and kept the game balance.

Without this rule, a cleric could face a horde of 60 skeletons and turn only the first d12 once. Note also on page 76,

"The turned undead will be able to come back again, but they are subject to further turning by the cleric."

We played it as any turned undead that fled and then returned, could be automatically turned again once the cleric took their round to turn undead. If a cleric were level-drained, then make the turning attempt again on previously turned undead.

3. In the exceptional case, you would attempt 1st round to turn d12 ghouls. 2nd round d12 of different ghouls until all ghouls were turned or failed. Once failed, then no more turning attempts because the rest of that level and higher levels were not impressed by your lack of faith. Next round attempt d12 ghasts and again on different ghasts until ghasts failed or all were turned. Next attempt the vampire. Page 65 offers an alternate rule

"If undead are in a mixed group - for example, 1 vampire, 3 ghasts, and 8 ghouls - you may opt to disallow any turning or other effect if the most powerful member - in the example above, the vampire - is not affected by the cleric."

a. page 65 describes forms and types as different kinds of undead, ghouls versus ghasts or vampires. Yes, I read that forms and types are synonymous in this context.

b. If a mixed group is reduced to homogeneous, by proceeding from lowest to highest and by individuals, you would know which individuals have been attempted to turn from lowest, a d12 at a time through the highest. Once cycled through that, there are no more turning attempts.

Answer 2

1. ''... once by each cleric.'' I'm almost certain that I don't think it means what it says - if you play a cleric, you can turn undead once in your career and never again. From its position in the COMBAT chapter (like that's any sort of guide), I think it means once per combat. Does anyone have any insight?

RAW is unclear on this point. But, I think you are correct in that this section being located in the Combat chapter strongly implies the "once" refers to "once in each combat".

Use of the term "once" in relation to the frequency of an effect is typically made using a time frame, ie. once each day, once each week, and so on. The examples of this are so numerous as to be commonplace within the AD&D e1 rules. It is reasonable to interpret this this passage as once each combat.

Furthermore, it should be noted that one passage does come very close to outright stating turning undead is not a once ever effect, see DMG page 66 on the subject of countering turning and two clerics battling for control over the same group of undead:

This may continue indefinitely until one or the other cleric fails and is no longer eligible to affect undead et al. When affected creatures have clerical effects countered, they are powerless to toke any action on the following round.

The fact that RAW states this back and forth can occur very strongly implies that interpreting "once" as turning undead only once a lifetime is out of the question.

This is reinforced from another angle by the passage on page 20 of the PHB which states the main purpose of a cleric:

the cleric serves to fortify, protect, and revitalize.

Key here is "protect", the act of turning undead is a defensive power granted to the cleric by their deity and focused through their holy symbol. By putting themselves between the undead and others they can become a wall of sorts. See PHB page 104:

The cleric must be in a position to step before the undead, and he or she must have time to speak and hold forth the religious symbol in order to turn (or command) undead

It is likely an activity intended as a tool to protect themselves and others would be usable more than once in a lifetime when such protection is the main purpose of the class.

While the rules are not explicit, I do believe there are adequate grounds to read the intent as "a cleric is allow to turn undead once each combat" rather than as "once in a lifetime"

2. Informed by the above, if new undead join the combat, can a new turning attempt be made?

RAW - In the case that no turn roll has yet failed in this combat, any new undead joining would be no different from the ones already there, ie they are seen as part of the same group. If they are of a different form then the group is now a "multiple form" group and hence eligible for another turn attempt. However, in the case of them being the same form as the group then no extra attempts would be allowed according to RAW.

3. The "... exceptional case ..." seems to allow a cleric to keep succeeding over and over as long as the original group consisted of "multiple forms".

Correct.

So:

1. What does "multiple forms" mean? The text uses "forms" and "types" - types is clear from the table: skeletons are a different type from zombies and so on. But are "forms" synonymous with "types": that is, does "multiple forms" mean more than one type of undead or just more than 1 undead.

Yes, "forms" and "types" are used interchangeably. While the passage we are dissecting on page 65 of the DMG uses the term "forms" the matching matrix on page 75 fo the DMG uses the term "type" so it is fair to conclude the terms are used interchangeably.

2. If the former, what happens if the mixed group is reduced to a homogenous group by this process? Can the cleric keep trying so long as they keep succeeding?

RAW - The weaker undead are affected first. For this reason it is very possible that the result of all the lesser undead in a multiple form group being turned would leave only one type of undead in the group by the end of the combat round. As written, I would say the rules indicate all turning from any cleric that has already made a turn roll stops for this group of undead at that point. This group of undead has been affected by at least one turn by the cleric and now that the group is no longer a multiple form group no additional turn rolls would be allowed for that cleric during that combat.

Answer 3

Ah, I remember now much of the frustration to be had with 1e....

1. I think it is pretty clear in context it is not "A cleric can turn undead once in her life," or even "A cleric can turn each type of undead only once in their life." That's just not supported by context. In context it probably means "A cleric can try to turn each group of undead once, after which they are immune."

   A house rule "until something significant changes" would be reasonable in my view. What's significant? Cleric levels up, or gains item that increases their turning ability. Undead sustains significant damage and the combat breaks off until they re-engage. But that's me applying a modern adult sensibility to things, probably doesn't match how I would have thought as a high school kid or the general sentiment of the 80s.

2. Unclear, unspecified, but I would allow it. I would probably let them invoke the special case rules again, under the doctrine of "significant change."

3. 1. Recall (and see in the table) that minor creatures from the outer planes can be turned as well. I think types refers to types of undead and forms refers to other forms of non-undead creatures that might be turned. But honestly, it could just be Gygax being Gygax and using different words where uniform terminology would have been clearer.

   2. Per the rules as stated, no, once you reach homogeneity, you stop. As far as I can tell, the way this plays out guarantees (or very nearly so) that you will strip away the lower level undead until you are left with the leader(s) of the toughest type.

      Consider a group of 5 skeletons, 5 zombies, and 2 ghouls, vs a 1st level cleric.

      First turn, the cleric rolls a 15, affecting potentially skeletons and zombies. She then rolls a 4 on a d12: The four lowest level undead, the skeletons, are turned. She can try again.

      Second turn, she rolls a 20, affecting them all; she rolls a 7 on a d12. The seven lowest level undead vanish: the remaining skeleton, 5 zombies, and 1 ghoul. The undead are now homogenous, she is done with turning.

      If undead are vanishing solely due to turning (as opposed to fireballs) I don't see any obvious way to be left with anything but the strongest group. But if other combatants are killing them, then per the rules as written, I think once a homogenous group is reached, our cleric is done turning.

But there is an ambiguity in those rules: My single d12 die roll approach is based on the following text:

Undead so turned (from the group of multiple types) are lowest hit dice types to highest hit dice types, i.e. first listed to last listed an the table.

...and in general, the number of undead turned on a successful attempt is 1d12, per p 75. That, to me, implies you roll a d12 and pick them off, lowest on up.

But also on p 75, there are special cases where 7-12 undead are turned (for high level clerics auto-disrupting low level undead) and where 1-2 creatures are turned ("special" meaning mostly minor demons and devils.) I have no idea how that would be adjudicated.

There is also this on p 77, but I think this is not written with the special case of heterogeneity in mind:

Procedure: A d20 is rolled, and if the number shown is matched or exceeded by the die roll the undead are turned. From 1-12 (or 7-12 or 1-2) undead (or evil creatures from lower planes) are affected: