2
\$\begingroup\$

I need to know how tremor sense works with sneak attack and invisibility.

Normally when a something is invisible they have no problems walking upto someone else and getting a sneak attack. The thing getting attacked (assuming it is vulnerable to the sneak attack damage) remains vulnerable to the sneak attack until it acts much like a surprise round and initiative. So even when the invisibility wears off from the first attack, any following attacks are still sneak attack.

Now what happens when the person being attacked has tremor sense? It knows something walked upto it. Is it still flat footed to the attack?

If it matters, the person with tremor sense is a druid who has taken the cleric cave domain and is 8th level. The person attacking is a 5th level rogue who has taken ki pool, and ninja trick vanishing trick.

\$\endgroup\$
1
  • 2
    \$\begingroup\$ "Normally when a something is invisible [... t]he thing getting attacked (assuming it is vulnerable to the sneak attack damage) remains vulnerable to the sneak attack until it acts much like a surprise round and initiative." This sounds like you mean that if you start a round invisible, attack someone, and become visible, you still gain the benefits of being invisible. Have I summarized that accurately? If I have, can you point me to where the game says that? I'm unfamiliar with that rule. \$\endgroup\$
    – Hey I Can Chan
    Commented Sep 6, 2015 at 12:16

2 Answers 2

Reset to default
5
\$\begingroup\$

Tremorsense reveals the location of invisible attackers; it doesn't offer protection from sneak attack damage

The extraordinary ability tremorsense says that it

can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground. Aquatic creatures with tremorsense can also sense the location of creatures moving through water. The ability’s range is specified in the creature’s descriptive text.

Pinpointing a target's location doesn't negate the concealment granted by an effect like the spell invisibility. A creature with tremorsense that pinpoints an invisible creature's location can make attacks against an invisible creature (albeit with a 50% miss chance) without first locating the invisible creature using other methods (like flailing around like an idiot). Being able to make such attack semi-accurately doesn't make the creature with tremorsense immune to sneak attacks. The creature with tremorsense still can't see what the invisible creature is doing.

Example 1

Abe, lacking tremorsense, is unaware of Bob because Bob is invisible through an invisibility spell.

  • Surprise Round: Bob stabs flat-footed Abe. Bob's invisibility spell ends.
  • Round 1: Initiative checks are made. Bob acts then Abe acts. Bob takes the full attack action and makes several attacks versus flat-footed Abe. Abe dies.

Example 2

Abe, having gained tremorsense 30 ft., is aware of Bob despite Bob's invisibility spell.

  • Round 1: Initiative checks are made. Bob acts then Abe acts. Bob takes a move action to get into position then takes a standard action to make a standard attack against flat-footed Abe. Bob's invisibility spell ends. Abe take a 5-ft. step away from Bob and takes a standard action to cast the spell finger of death on Bob. Bob makes a Fortitude saving throw, fails that saving throw, is dealt 200 points of damage, and dies.

Example 3

While affected by an invisibility spell Bob teleports adjacent to Abe. Abe, possessing tremorsense 30 ft., is aware of Bob's presence.

  • Round 1: Initiative checks are made. Bob acts then Abe acts. Bob takes the full-attack action to make several attacks against flat-footed Abe. After the first attack, Bob's invisibility spell ends. Abe, who has yet to act, remains flat-footed. Bob continues his full attack action, still his dealing sneak attack damage to flat-footed Abe. Abe dies.

Example 4

While affected by an invisibility spell Bob teleports adjacent to Abe. Abe, possessing tremorsense 30 ft., is aware of Bob's presence.

  • Round 1: Initiative checks are made. Abe acts then Bob acts. Abe can't target Bob with the spell finger of death because, while Abe knows Bob's location, Abe can't actually see Bob. Abe, instead, uses flame strike to affect an area so as to catch Bob in the spell's effect. Bob makes a Reflex saving throw, succeeds on the saving throw, and takes no damage because of his extraordinary ability evasion. Bob takes the full-attack action to make several attacks against Abe. The first attack (which must be at Bob's highest base attack bonus against Abe) deals sneak attack damage: although Abe is no longer flat-footed Bob still benefits from the spell invisibility. After that first attack, however, the invisibility spell ends, and Bob's remaining attacks don't deal sneak attack damage.

To be clear, I've omitted a host of things from these examples to make them concisely address the question, chief among them the Perception checks that Abe gets against Bob to help him survive the attack from the invisible ninja.

\$\endgroup\$
5
  • \$\begingroup\$ I am happy to add more examples if a specific situation is first detailed, but I can't bear to extend this answer's mandate beyond the tremorsense-versus-invisibility issue. Pathfinder, however, is a lot like D&D 3.5, so this answer might be helpful to those needing more information. \$\endgroup\$
    – Hey I Can Chan
    Commented Sep 6, 2015 at 12:05
  • \$\begingroup\$ So you are saying only the first attack (disregarding flanking and stuff), regardless of invisible (unless greater), surprise round, combat imitative, gets the sneak attack and no other attacks? So only conditions which grant you total concealment, the target flat footed, or flanking will grant you more than a single sneak attack? \$\endgroup\$
    – Fering
    Commented Sep 6, 2015 at 16:47
  • \$\begingroup\$ I thought the defender was denied their dex bonus until they acted after the attacker showed up \$\endgroup\$
    – Fering
    Commented Sep 6, 2015 at 16:58
  • \$\begingroup\$ @Fering I'm not sure what that after the attacker showed up part means. (If it means what I think it means I'm pretty sure that relates to my Comment on your question, though.) \$\endgroup\$
    – Hey I Can Chan
    Commented Sep 6, 2015 at 17:04
  • \$\begingroup\$ @Fering For the attacker to deal sneak attack damage, the defender must be denied its Dex bonus to AC or the attacker's flanking the defender. While an attacker is invisible, the defender's usually denied its Dex bonus to AC; when the attacker's visible, the defender is usually not denied its Dex bonus to AC unless the defender is through another, totally different means (such as not yet having acted in the combat). Note that there are a lot of exceptions and variables involved; this is just stuff at its absolute basic. [This reposted Comment corrects a now-deleted inaccurate comment.] \$\endgroup\$
    – Hey I Can Chan
    Commented Sep 6, 2015 at 17:36
-1
\$\begingroup\$

Just reading up on the appropriate rules I would say it depends on the situation at hand.

If combat has not already started the target (without tremor sense) would normally be surprised by the rogue if his stealth check was successfull. Thus the target would not get its dex bonus to AC. With tremor sense though the target is aware that someone IS there thus the gm can say "ok the target does not like this and becomes wary enough so that it is not surprised and thus normal initiative is rolled. And there the normal rules come into effect with the target havingt acted already or not (the later resulting in flat footed) when the rogue attacks.

On the other hand if combat has alreayd started the target is never counted as being flat footed (that is if it already has acted at least once in this combat) BUT the rogue can still try to flank it to gain a sneak attack. The problem for the rogue here is though that the target knows something is coming and from where and probably will try to move into a positoin so that it can't be flanked easily.

\$\endgroup\$

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .