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In the game I am running, we have a 10th level druid who likes to wildshape into one of the cats which has a bite, and two claw attacks all with grab. It also has rake. New information, the cat is a dire tiger.

So Pounce

When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).

And Rake

A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe. In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. The bonus and damage caused by these attacks is included in the creature’s description. A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.

There seem to be three ways of reading this.

  • They feel that whenever they pounce, regardless of success or failure of the bite and two claws, they should also be allowed to make the rake attacks along with the bite and claws so they have 5 attacks every time they pounce.
  • Rake can only be used when they are grappled, so if they successfully grapple with one of the first 3 attacks, they can also make the rake attack as part of the pounce full attack.
  • Rake can only happen during a turn when they are grappled, not the turn they become grappled.
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  • \$\begingroup\$ Ill ask the player what they wildshape into and add that to the question. I did realize that using the grab ability would stop further attacks, and I also didnt know about the automatic damage just for maintaining. We've really been doing grappling wrong. Im now more confused to be honest. \$\endgroup\$
    – Fering
    Commented Jan 1, 2017 at 19:23
  • \$\begingroup\$ His argument is that since pounce mentions rake in its description, that rake must also be allowed because pounce doesnt say otherwise, despite rake saying its part of a grapple. I try to be fair and instead of R0 I ask online. \$\endgroup\$
    – Fering
    Commented Jan 1, 2017 at 20:20
  • \$\begingroup\$ That's… a good argument, actually. (I'd rule against allowing rakes attacks to be made first, though.) \$\endgroup\$
    – Hey I Can Chan
    Commented Jan 1, 2017 at 20:57
  • \$\begingroup\$ Who's argument is good? That rake requires a grapple or that pounce mentions rake? \$\endgroup\$
    – Fering
    Commented Jan 1, 2017 at 21:51

1 Answer 1

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The key word in the rake description is "typically." So rake says

A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe.

It then goes on to tell you how the ability works under the typical conditions:

In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. The bonus and damage caused by these attacks is included in the creature’s description.

Finally, there is a limitation placed on using the rake ability in these typical conditions:

A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.

But then we have pounce, which grants a specific exception:

When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).

Specific trumps general, so the extra attacks from a rake can be used when pouncing.

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