Swashbucklers with the Gymnast style gain panache when they Trip, Shove, or Grapple.
Does it have to be an actual Trip action, or would Improved Knockdown work?
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1\$\begingroup\$ Or, in other words, "Does gaining the applying the effect of something count as successfully doing the same thing?" Very interesting question. \$\endgroup\$– ESCECommented Jul 30, 2021 at 20:47
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2 Answers
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While @BenBarden's answer was correct at the time of writing, the 3rd errata of the CRB changed Knockdown:
If you do and your Strike hits, instead of rolling a check for your Trip attempt, you automatically apply the critical success effect of a Trip.
So it gives panache to the Gymnast.
answered Jun 28, 2022 at 19:21
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2\$\begingroup\$ I... don't think their new wording is actually any clearer, despite them saying the whole point of the new wording was to make it clearer. It basically changed "also" in the old description to "automatically". I think this is the write interpretation, though, given the point of this errata was to make it certain "whether you apply any special effects and requirements related to the Trip action". I just wish they had provided an example, or said something like "you automatically critically succeed at Tripping them". "Effect" I think is the word that makes things tough here. \$\endgroup\$– ESCECommented Jun 28, 2022 at 21:08
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1\$\begingroup\$ Gaining panache is a success effect of Trip, right? \$\endgroup\$ Commented Jun 28, 2022 at 21:33
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2\$\begingroup\$ Probably, although I can see why some people would argue it isn't. But the question still boils down to "is getting the effects of Trip the same thing as Tripping someone"? I think RAW is debatable, but the common sense ruling, RAI, and what Paizo seems to be wanting all point to answering yes. It's just they aren't doing a great job of directly saying it lol \$\endgroup\$– ESCECommented Jun 28, 2022 at 23:08
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1\$\begingroup\$ @SpearCarrier.no2 it's not just about the success effect, Panache needs the check too: "You gain panache by successfully performing the skill check associated with specific actions that have a bit of flair, including Tumble Through and additional actions determined by your swashbuckler's style". but with Improved Knockdown you get the Trip effect without making any skill check. \$\endgroup\$– RuseCommented Jun 29, 2022 at 7:11
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Trip, Grapple, and Shove are specific actions. You gain panache by pulling them off with flair. Thus, a Gymnast would get Panache from a successful Trip as part of a standard Knockdown, but not for the improved Knockdown, which applies the critical success effect of a trip, but does not otherwise behave as a trip. Likewise, you can gain panache from a successful use of the grapple action, but not from those actions that just automatically enter a grapple like Combat Grab.
However, it's worth noting that as a Swashbucker, you can also gain panache from Tumble Through, and from actions in general that are appropriately cinematic and daring.
answered Jul 30, 2021 at 20:50
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4\$\begingroup\$ Can't an argument be made that gaining Panache is part of the success effect of a Trip, and thus should be applied by Improved Knockdown, which allows you to "apply the critical success effect of a Trip"? \$\endgroup\$– ESCECommented Jul 30, 2021 at 22:05
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1\$\begingroup\$ @ESCE I think that that argument could be made. By all means, feel free to make it. \$\endgroup\$ Commented Aug 3, 2021 at 16:50
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\$\begingroup\$ Well, I do happen to think your answer is the most correct one for this question, but I do think it's a bit... ambiguous. \$\endgroup\$– ESCECommented Aug 3, 2021 at 17:18
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1\$\begingroup\$ The errata has changed this recently \$\endgroup\$ Commented Jun 28, 2022 at 19:25